Prisonist.org: Edited by Jeff Grant, JD, M Div, Executive Director of Family ReEntry, serving the CT Criminal Justice Community & Co-Founder of Progressive Prison Ministries, the First Ministry in the U.S. Created to Support Individuals, Families & Organizations with White-Collar and Other Nonviolent Incarceration Issues.

Wednesday, November 23, 2016

#GivingTuesday Nov. 29, 2016 - A Message to our Great Community of Givers: Thank You for All You Do for Those Who Need it Most!




A Message to our
 Great Community of Givers:  
Thank You for All You Do  
for Those Who Need it Most!
 

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 to our Ministry on
 #GivingTuesday or Today

Dear Friends,

One of the things we like most about our ministry is that we get to work with and alongside a Great Community of givers good, caring people who give of your time, energy and resources to make the world a better, more humane place

We know that you contribute to many important causes, and are grateful for your support of our Ministries. These donations enable us to grow, reach out and serve this community for which there is far too little understanding, compassion, empathy and accurate information.  We hope you will consider making a donation to our ministry on #GivingTuesday or today.  Donations can be made by credit card/PayPal here, at the "Donate" button on our site, prisonist.org, or by sending your check payable to: "Progressive Prison Ministries, Inc." P.O. Box 1232, Weston, Connecticut 06883.  Progressive Prison Ministries, Inc. is a CT Religious Corp. with 501c3 status - all donations are tax deductible to the extent permitted by law.

If you, a friend or a family member are experiencing a white-collar or nonviolent incarceration issue, please contact us and we will promptly send you an information package by mail, email or via Dropbox. The darkest days of a person's life can be a time of renewal and hope. We are here to listen, help and provide coping and healing solutions.

Thank you again for your generosity and support.

Blessings, כן, מאוד


Jeff & Lynn

Rev. Jeff Grant, JD, M Div, Founder/Director

Lynn Springer, Founding Advocate
Progressive Prison Ministries, Inc.
Greenwich CT & Nationwide
Mailing: PO Box 1232, Weston, CT 06883


jgrant@prisonist.org
lspringer@prisonist.org 
(203) 339-5887

Link to our latest newsletter: http://conta.cc/2gFCZE7

_____________


Progressive Prison Ministries has joined #GivingTuesday, a global day of giving that harnesses the collective power of individuals, communities and organizations to encourage philanthropy and to celebrate generosity worldwide. Occurring this year on November 29, #GivingTuesday is held annually on the Tuesday after Thanksgiving (in the U.S.) and the widely recognized shopping events Black Friday and Cyber Monday to kick-off the holiday giving season and inspire people to collaborate in improving their local communities and to give back in impactful ways to the charities and causes they support. 

__________ 
 

If you, a friend or a family member are experiencing a white-collar or nonviolent incarceration issue, please contact us and we will promptly send you an information package by mail, email or via Dropbox.

The darkest days of a person's life can be a

time of renewal and hope


____________


Progressive Prison Ministries, Inc.

Rev. Deacon Jeff Grant, JD, M Div, Director
jgrant@prisonist.org
(o) 203-769-1096
(m) 203-339-5887
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Lynn Springer, Founding Advocate, Innocent Spouse & Children Project
lspringer@prisonist.org

(203) 536-5508


Rev. Monsignor Joseph Ciccone, Ed D, M Div
Supervising Minister
stjosephmissionchurch@gmail.com
(201) 982-2206

Jacqueline Polverari, MBA, MSW, Advocate
Women's Incarceration Issues
jpolverari@prisonist.org
(203) 671-5139

George Bresnan, Advocate, Ex-Pats
gbresnan@prisonist.org
(203) 609-5088

Jim Gabal, Development
jgabal@prisonist.org
(203) 858-2865

Babz Rawls Ivy, Media Contact
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(203) 645-9278   
 

Wednesday, November 16, 2016

What's the Use of Regret? by Gordon Marino - Guest Blogger


Prisonist.org: Faith & Dignity 
for the Days Ahead
Blogs, Guest Blogs & News



What's the Use of Regret?

by Gordon Marino - Guest Blogger 



We read this Op-Ed in The New York Times (Oct. 13, 2016) and reached out to the author who enthusiastically gave us permission to reprint on prisonist.org.
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A few weeks ago I was sitting poolside in Florida with a friendly retiree who was standing in the warm aqua water, beaming with friendliness. We started chatting, first about his hometown, Pittsburgh, and the many great athletes from there. Soon the conversation pivoted to Vietnam and his experiences as a draftee there. Embarrassed because I was spared from that jungle and moral crucible, I just listened. First it was a few madcap stories about his arrival in ’Nam, but then his thoughts swam along a darker current.

Moving his arms underwater, he recalled: “One time I had just gotten paid and I was gambling, playing poker with this 14-year-old Vietnamese kid. A great kid. He was studying English — wanted to make something of himself! Well, he won fair and square. He cleaned me out of my whole paycheck. I was drinking heavily back then. I picked up my M16, pointed it at him and demanded my money back. He gave me my money.”

All I could do was shake my head and tell him (though it wasn’t completely true) that every ugly deed that I committed had also been fueled by alcohol. As though I’d missed the point, he said: “I haven’t had a drink in decades. But you know I’d give anything to be able to see that kid now grown.” His voice swelled with emotion. “I would get on my knees and ask his forgiveness. I would say that I hope he has had a great life and that I am sorry.”

The otherwise jolly veteran-turned-accountant went on to suggest that he had done worse things “over there.” I hung my head and was thinking that maybe I should apologize to him for having been able and willing to get a deferment, avoiding the harrowing machine that sliced up his sense of innocence.

Not long after, I found myself wide awake one night, waiting for the gods of sleep to descend, when the incubus of a memory of another weak and selfish moment crawled out from under my bed. Sitting on my chest, it may as well have snickered, “O, teacher of ethics, how can you have any moral confidence in yourself after that?”


After what?

Better not to say. No less of an authority on sin and repentance than Dostoyevsky raised doubts about our ability to confess without boasting or making a power grab. Albert Camus, a student of Dostoyevsky, wrote “The Fall,” a book about guilt and judgment in an age when God and forgiveness have been put to bed. Camus’s protagonist, the “judge penitent” Jean-Baptiste Clamence, confesses that “the more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you — even better, I provoke you into judging yourself.”

Perhaps I will commit one fewer sin by refraining from broadcasting my regrets.

In one of Kierkegaard’s most famous and cryptic sentences, he wrote, “The self is a relation that relates itself to itself.” Kierkegaard went on to explain that among other things, we are beings who combine aspects of both temporality and eternity. We are given the task of relating ourselves to our past and to our future. Days gone by are seldom an issue, but how to interpret major missteps that might prompt a person to lose faith in himself is a challenge that shapes who we are.

Some thinkers have portrayed regret as a humanizing emotion. The 20th-century moral philosopher Bernard Williams pointed out that, in instances where a person hurts another through no fault of her own (to use his example, a truck driver who runs over a child), we still expect her to feel remorseful. She will feel the weight of the event more intensely than any spectator. Other people, Williams writes, will try to comfort her, “but it is important that this is seen as something that should need to be done, and indeed some doubt would be felt about a driver who too blandly or readily moved to that position” of comfort.

Others hold the commonsense view that regret over a past event you can do nothing about is a waste of time when you can actually do something instead.

The 17th-century philosopher Baruch Spinoza reasoned that remorse and repentance are pernicious intoxicants that interfere with our understanding: It is out of rashness that we transgress and it is out of rashness that that we pound our heads about our transgressions. Our main aim, he believed, should be to avoid acting on impulse and emotion and to be guided by reason. Nietzsche agreed, calling remorse “adding to the first act of stupidity a second.”

In our therapeutic age, the likely counsel to the troubled former soldier would be “forgive yourself!” But self-forgiveness is a misconception. The only people who can forgive us are those we have sinned against, those we have harmed. Dostoyevsky’s Ivan Karamozov argued that not even God has the right to forgive someone who has tortured and murdered children. After all, God wasn’t the one who was tortured.

I have no authority to forgive someone for mugging you, and I can’t forgive myself for cheating someone else. This is not to endorse endlessly torturing ourselves or pathological guilt. When the super-ego becomes a mad dog, we lose faith in ourselves and in our ability to mend our ways. We can learn to let things go, but before we let them go, we have to let regret get hold of us. Perhaps the old biblical formula is best — repent, ask for forgiveness with a sincere resolve to change your ways.

Regrets come in different forms. There are the faux pas and botched career moves. Just before he tumbled over the falls and out of existence, I asked an uncle if he had any regrets. His brow furrowed, he drew a deep breath as though what he was about to say was hard-going. Then he confessed that the one thing he deeply regretted was selling a certain piece of property at a price that was much too low.


Moral regrets are usually packed up in deep self-storage and we often make a point of remembering to forget them, even while we are awash in pseudo-regrets. I often regale my male friends with the tale of the time during college football pre-season when I started a fight with a coach on the practice field. This incident helped bring an end to my less than glorious gridiron career, and in that sense I regret it, but when I tell the story it is always with a chuckle, as if to say, “Wasn’t I a pirate in my day?”


As Freud and Kierkegaard taught, we always have to consider the affect, the mood with which an idea is expressed, in order to begin to comprehend the meaning that the idea has for us. The memory that the Vietnam vet bounced out of the pool was not of that backward boastful sort, it was a beach ball of sorrow. I suspect that he was a better person for having mulled over and hung his head for his behavior than he would have been had he resolved — what’s done is done and never thought about it again.

Kierkegaard observed that you don’t change God when you pray, you change yourself. Perhaps it is the same with regret. I can’t rewind and expunge my past actions, but perhaps I change who I am in my act of remorse. Henry David Thoreau advised: “Make the most of your regrets; never smother your sorrow, but tend and cherish it till it comes to have a separate and integral interest. To regret deeply is to live afresh.” To live afresh is to be morally born again.


Gordon Marino, Ph.D. is a professor of philosophy at St. Olaf College, Northfield, MN. His areas of specialization include History of Philosophy, Philosophy of Religion, and Kierkegaard. Professor Marino is the author of Kierkegaard in the Present Age and co-editor of The Cambridge Companion to Kierkegaard. His articles have appeared in the Atlantic Monthly, New York Times Magazine, Wall Street Journal, American Poetry Review, and many other periodicals. Marino is also the Curator of the Hong Kierkegaard Library. He can be reached at:
marino@stolaf.edu
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Comments from Social Media



    Robert Bridges Nicely written, entertaining and educational in that the writer knows a lot about Kierkegaard, Freud and others. I don't know that I agree with: >> In our therapeutic age, the likely counsel to the troubled former soldier would be “forgive yourself!” But self-forgiveness is a misconception. The only people who can forgive us are those we have sinned against, those we have harmed.
    I have no authority to forgive someone for mugging you, and I can’t forgive myself for cheating someone else." <<

    All this seems to assume that you and me are separate. All this seems to assume that by forgiving ones self (which is possible) others are excluded and thats not the case. I not only can but I may need to forgive "myself for harming another." And as for regret we all have them and maybe our task is to learn to forgive ourselves for being human and I think when I do this for myself it helps me to do this with others too...even God
  • Alfred Dorn Regret allows us to study our past actions in hopes of improving our future responses.
  • Robert Bridges I agree Alfred that regret allows or forces us to study our past actions and I've always thought the refusal to grow/learn/change is blasphemy and growing old is teaching me that regrets need to be looked at through kind and wise eyes with the warmth of the heart.

    Laird Ballard Jeff...regret teaches us to avoid continuing on a similar path when seen again. I agree with both Kierkegaard and Thoreau. Good post! 

    Bob Russel (CIPA 08) Hi There; A rather interesting piece written here. When I pray I always find like having a conversation with God plus time for personal reflection. Thank you.

     Sonni Quick: I have a different perspective on the value of forgiveness than what was expressed here and some of that comes from not being a Christian nor do I have a belief a in a God whatsoever which to me is just a teaching passed down through the ages because of man's desire to understand his life. I've been a Buddhist for 30 years which has no outside intelligence with a plan for your life. We generally believe what we are taught and everyone has the right to choose their belief system. I respect that. That being said - forgiveness - I've has this talk many times over the years. There are those who think as long as they ask for God's forgiveness he will save you all all is okay. But as this author also said, forgiveness for whateverbad thing you did does not change what you did. You can think God forgives you but the fact remains that an actual cause was made. The effect can't be just erased. The effect of that cause will happen. People cannot do what they want and think the act of asking for forgiveness will make it better. Buddhism calls it - The Law of Cause and Effect. Christianity calls it - You Reap What You Soow. Nichiren Buddhists take that law very seriously. Christians rarely do because they think asking for forgiveness fixes their transgression.

    No one is perfect, but it is through the mistakes we make, and the genuine perusal of our own nature, thinking about why we do the things we do, and asking ourself why we can't stop reacting to our environment in a negative way that helps us to gradually change aspects of our ourselves that cause us unhappiness: a quick temper, a judgemental attitude, lying about unnecessary things -anything that brings negativity into play. Why do we do it? It happens over and over until we learn whatever lesson there is to learn. When we change something fundamental inside is it will reflect in our environment. Nothing and no one can change who you are or the life that surrounds you. Only you can do that. I don't see, in the lives of the Christians I grew up with, or with the Christians I know today, that their faith has changed their life. Yes, they can proclaim their love of God,they can memorized passages in the Bible, they can tell everyone how important God is to them and go to church for activities several times a week - but they don't understand the meaning of what they practice and apply it to all parts of their life. They are allowed to be hateful and mean against people they don't like. We saw so much of it this past year - because they don't understand there are consequences to what they do. They think God will forgive then. In the end their faith hasn't helped them become better people who make better causes and then have better lives. They think bad behavior is okay and all they wait for is heaven, not realizing the state of heaven and hell happens while they live. They don't have to due to go there.You only need to look at all the miserable and unhappy people there is that gets worse as they age to understand that.Put yourself inside a group of people of any size that understand the law of cause and effect and you will say, "I want what you have."

    Sorry I wrote for so long. It is what I do when I teach a point. My only question for anyone who reads this: ask yourself, Why do you believe what you believe? Who taught you it was the truth? Go to the beginning and question, who taught that person it was the truth. Also, what is your absolute proof?
    Thank you. 



Donations

We are grateful for all donations this past year to our Ministries. These donations enable us to grow, reach out and serve this community for which there is far too little understanding, compassion, empathy and accurate information.  Progressive Prison Ministries, Inc. is a CT Religious Corp. with 501c3 status -


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all donations are tax deductible to the extent permitted by law. We hope you will consider making a donation to our appeal this year.  Donations can be made by credit card/PayPal here, at the "Donate" button on on our site, prisonist.org or by sending your check payable to: "Progressive Prison Ministries, Inc." P.O. Box 1232, Weston, Connecticut 06883.  We have enclosed an addressed envelope for your use. Thank you.


__________ 
 

If you, a friend or a family member are experiencing a white-collar or nonviolent incarceration issue, please contact us and we will promptly send you an information package by mail, email or via Dropbox.

The darkest days of a person's life can be a

time of renewal and hope

____________


Progressive Prison Ministries, Inc.

Rev. Deacon Jeff Grant, JD, M Div, Director
jgrant@prisonist.org
(o) 203-769-1096
(m) 203-339-5887
Twitter
Facebook
Linked In
Pinterest
Google+



Lynn Springer, Founding Advocate, Innocent Spouse & Children Project
lspringer@prisonist.org

(203) 536-5508


Rev. Monsignor Joseph Ciccone, Ed D, M Div
Supervising Minister
stjosephmissionchurch@gmail.com
(201) 982-2206

Jacqueline Polverari, MBA, MSW, Advocate
Women's Incarceration Issues
jpolverari@prisonist.org
(203) 671-5139

George Bresnan, Advocate, Ex-Pats
gbresnan@prisonist.org
(203) 609-5088

Jim Gabal, Development
jgabal@prisonist.org
(203) 858-2865

Babz Rawls Ivy, Media Contact
mediababz@gmail.com
(203) 645-9278   

Saturday, November 12, 2016

Why Prisoners and Ex-Felons Should Retain the Right to Vote, by Gregg D. Caruso - Guest Blogger






On Tuesday, November 8, when Americans go to the polls to cast their ballot for the next President of the United States, an estimated 6.1 million citizens will be barred from participating due to felony convictions. 

This disenfranchised population includes persons currently in prison or jail as well as millions who are under probation or parole or who have completed their sentence. In fact, an estimated 3.1 million people are disenfranchised due to state laws that restrict voting rights even after completion of sentences. African American communities have disproportionately been impacted by these felony disenfranchisement policies—a recent report from The Sentencing Project estimates that one in every thirteen black Americans has lost their voting rights.

State laws governing voter eligibility for prisoners and ex-felons vary greatly. Only two states allow prisoners to vote—Maine and Vermont—whereas the twelve most extreme states impose a lifetime voting ban on convicted felons even after they have completed their sentence and are no longer on probation or parole. Fifteen other states restrict voting for prisoners, four states for prisoners and those on parole, and eighteen states for prisoners, those on parole, and those on probation. (See here for a state-by-state breakdown).

The right of an American citizen to vote in elections is protected by the United States Constitution, which prohibits disenfranchisement for reasons such as age, gender, and race. However, the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution preserves for the states the full power to restrict an individual’s right to vote due to a criminal conviction. The National Conference of State Legislatures provides the following brief history:

The idea of taking away a criminal’s right to vote has been around since ancient Greece and Rome. A condition called “civil death” in Europe involved the forfeiture of property, the loss of the right to appear in court, and a prohibition on entering into contracts, as well as the loss of voting rights. Civil death was brought to America by English colonists, but most aspects of it were eventually abolished, leaving only felon disenfranchisement intact in some parts of modern America.

I propose that prisoners and ex-felons should retain the right to vote and that to disempower and disenfranchise such a large portion of the population is philosophically unjustified and harmful to society. The notion of civic death is grounded in an antiquated retributivist justification for punishment and is misguided and counterproductive. It should be abolished along with its other components.

Within the United States, the most prominent justification for criminal punishment is retributivism. This retributivist justification for punishment maintains that punishment of a wrongdoer is justified for the reason that she deserves something bad to happen to her just because she has knowingly done wrong; this could include pain, deprivation, or death. For the retributivist, it is the basic desert attached to the criminal’s immoral action alone that provides the justification for punishment. This means that the retributivist position is not reducible to consequentialist considerations nor in justifying punishment does it appeal to wider goods such as the safety of society or the moral improvement of those being punished. 

A number of sentencing guidelines in the U.S. have adopted desert as their distributive principle (1), and it is increasingly given deference in the “purposes” section of state criminal codes (2), where it can be the guiding principle in the interpretation and application of the code’s provisions (3). Indeed, the American Law Institute recently revised the Model Penal Code (the first since the Code’s promulgation in 1962) so as to set desert as the official dominate principle for sentencing (4). And courts have identified desert as the guiding principle in a variety of contexts (5), as with the Supreme Court’s enthroning retributivism as the “primary justification for the death penalty” (6).
Retributivism provided the philosophical justification for the policies of civic death in the past and today remains the basis for felony disenfranchisement. The problem, however, is that retributive punishment is often practically ineffective and philosophically dubious. For one thing, several studies now show that retributivism often leads to excessively punitive forms of punishment. Such punitiveness is often counterproductive from the perspective of public safety (for a discussion see here). Second, philosophers, scientists, and lawyers have long challenged the justification for retributive punishment—which presupposes the highly contested notions of free will, moral responsibility, and just deserts. I have elsewhere developed a non-retributive alternative to criminal behavior call the public health-quarantine model, which I argue is more humane, effective, and philosophically justified (see here, here, and here)
But rather than defend that model here, I will simply make my case directly for restoring voting rights to prisoners and ex-felons.
First, I propose that only restrictions to personal liberty that have a demonstrated and substantial link to protecting public safety should be permitted. The right of self-protection and protection of harm to others, for example, can justify incapacitating dangerous criminals but it cannot justify restricting or removing voting rights. Preventing prisoners and ex-felons from voting does not fall within the public safety exception of liberty. 

The U.S. criminal justice system would make great strides if it adopted something like the Norwegian Correctional Service’s normality principle, which maintains that during the serving of a sentence, life inside prison should resemble life outside as much as possible. According to the normality principle: “No-one shall serve their sentence under stricter circumstances than necessary for the security in the community. Therefore offenders shall be placed in the lowest possible security regime.” Furthermore, it states that prison should be a restriction of liberty but nothing more, that is, “no other rights have been removed by the sentencing court.” As a result, all Norwegian prisoners retain their right to vote.

Second, disempowering and disenfranchising prisoners and ex-felons has the effect of dehumanizing and marginalizing them, sometimes permanently. Philosophically arbitrary and perpetual punishment, including the denial of voting rights to people who have paid their debt, imposes second-class citizenship on millions of citizens. This disempowerment runs contrary to the notion of second-chances—the idea that an individual can redeem himself and correct his/her course in life. If one thinks that prisons should aim at rehabilitation, then retaining the right to vote is essential. As The Guardian put it back in 2012, “A prisoner’s rehabilitation as a safe, responsible, and productive member of society must include the most basic right of democratic process—the right to choose who governs us. To remove this right dehumanizes prisoners.”

Third, as a recent article in Politico Magazine argues:
[O]ur constitutional ideals support the right of prisoners to vote, and denying it violates the concept of self-government that the founders cherished. Granting this right also makes sense for the country in terms of politics and policy. As prisons have grappled with the explosion in their populations in the past 20 years, allegations of prisoner maltreatment multiply, and criminal justice reform moves to the fore of our political debate, we should consider that one of the best ways to solve these intractable and expensive problems would be to listen to those currently incarcerated—and to allow them to represent themselves in our national political conversation.
By cutting felons out of the political conversation, we are losing out on the potential insights they could provide. Public policy would greatly benefit by listening to those most affected by the social determinates of crime and those most familiar with the workings of the criminal justice system. Disempowering prisoners and ex-felons results in a class of citizens still subject to the laws of the United States but without a voice in the way they are governed—not unlike taxation without representation. 

Finally, as the Politico article also notes, felony disenfranchisement laws create a cast system eerily similar of the days of slavery and Jim Crow:
The vast majority of states prisoners cannot vote, yet they’re often counted in the population for the legislative district of their prison, the main factor that determines a state’s number of representatives and its presidential electoral votes. It’s a practice the NAACP calls “prison-based gerrymandering.” If that sounds familiar, it should: Such a policy resembles the Constitution’s notorious three-fifths clause, which denied slaves the right to vote but counted them in the Census for the purposes of amassing more pro-slavery representatives.

This is an extremely troubling practice with sad political implications. Just like the days of the three-fifths clause, modern day prison-based gerrymandering means politicians lack an incentive to reduce the number of prisons in their district since they benefit politically from them—and they benefit without having to listen to the needs and concerns of those imprisoned. 

The forgoing considerations are by no means exhaustive. Additional arguments for restoring the right to vote to prisoners and ex-felons can, no doubt, be given. Considerations of human dignity, for example, recommend that no one should be humiliated, dehumanized, or marginalized without just cause. To the extent that felony disenfranchisement violates respect for human dignity, it too provides an additional reason to oppose it.  
***********************
(1) E.g., 204 Pa. Code Sect. 303.11 (2005); See M. Tonry, “U.S. Sentencing Systems Framgenting,” in M. Tonry (ed.) Panel Reform in Overcrowded Times (Oxford 2004): 21-28, Table 1.1.
(2) E.g., Cal. Penal Code Sect. 1170(a)(1) (West 1985): “The legislature finds and declares that the purpose of imprisonment for crime is punishment.”
(3) E.g., Model Penal Code Sect. 1.02(2) (Official Draft 1962).
(4) American Law Institute, Model Penal Code Sect. 1.02(2) adopted May 16, 2007. 
(5) See, for example, the U.S. cases Spaziano v. Florida, 468 U.S. 447, 462 (1984); Gregg v. Georgia, 428 U.S. 153, 183-84 (1976); M. Cotton, “Back with a vengeance: The Resilience of retribution as an articulated purpose of criminal punishment” (2000) 37 American Criminal Law Review 1313, 1326-27, 1357.
(6) Spaziano v. Florida, 468 U.S. at 461.



Bob Russel (CIPA 08)Hi There; Has happened within Ontario Corrections for a number of years now. FYI with thanks,  

Lisa Rea  A quick comment on this idea. I would support ex-felons having their voting rights restored. However, would not support those who are currently incarcerated having the right to vote. I do not speak for Restorative Justice International in this view. 

Lew White Millions are denied the right to vote because they are felons. At one time, women and those who did not own property were not allowed to vote.  

Richard SampsonI agree. Prisoners or returning citizens should have the right to retain the right to vote 

Matteo Marroni Simply unjust. 

Sam ChelladuraiEvery Human has the right to vote  

Frederick Cobb I don't see it ever happening here - Scotland maybe but not here. 

Robert Green Good, they forfeited that right when they were convicted of a felony Still managed to have 3 million non-U.S. citizens vote in the last election. That should be a bigger concern than these ex cons 

Pamela Yates Prisoners and ex-offenders can vote in Canada. It is a basic human right that is not removed upon conviction. The sentence (incarceration, probation, fine, etc.) is the punishment for the crime and additional rights cannot legally be removed as additional punishment. 

 Patsy Ortega  I have a question for the group. If an individual makes a mistake and goes to prison, does his time, learns his lesson and becomes a law abiding citizen, never making a mistake again, should they be punished the rest of their lives? I believe they should earn these privileges back, don't you? Or should they carry that sentence with them the rest of their lives? These individuals made a mistake, paid their debt and rose above, shouldn't they be given a second chance? There are ways that will show just what these individuals have done to change and better their lives, like maintaining a job for a period of time, purchased a home and maybe started their own business, and became self sufficient and successful, should this not count? I would like to hear your perspective on this. Thank you. 

Christopher Kent  Hi Patsy. Although your question is quite valid, it doesn't take into account recidivism. In many states, this can be quite high. My question is what about those who just can't seem to stay out of the system? (Let's be honest, some - albeit not all - really want to stay in because it's easier for them. Should we then put on conditions if voting is allowed? Or should we allow repeat offenders the same rights as all others? (In my humble opinion, if we dig really deep, this is not an easy answer.)  

Claire Bannerman-Mott  Hi Christopher and all, what would an objective argument/reason be to keep people from voting ? I am particularly interested in why behavior not associated to the right to vote should define this? People who are incarcerated or under supervision are populations who are deeply impacted by politics, so why should they not have a say in government? Being tough on crime does equate to being smart on crime and this is something researchers have been finding globally in studies for decades. A politician who works based on the emotive idea of being tough on crime has a very different impact on the criminal justice system to those who work with evidence based solutions.  

Whitney Anderson In some cases ex-cons have their voting rights restored after they complete parole. If you are legally living in the community your voice should Also consider recidivism is tied to a variety of factors, one of which is loose or no bond with the community they re-enter...developing ties to the community, and feeling like a valued member, or at least being given a voice, creates the possibility of instilling a sense of worth in the disenfranchised... 

Paul Conway Regardless of whether you are a locked up or not. If you are a citizen of that country you should have the right to vote. Stopping people from voting does amount to censorship or politicians scared inmates being treated inhumanely having a say and voting them out of office. 

Keith Livingway We should be concentrating on whether or not those so-called ex-cons were guilty in the first place because of the private prison issue in the country. Every Judge has a monetary interest directly or indirectly when people go to jail. The longer they stay the more money judges make in their own little pockets. Same goes for the prosecutors and everyone else involved. So before folks starting turning their high and mighty noses up they might find out they are dead wrong about being so arrogant and stupid. IN 2013, over 1000 prisoners were released from the Georgia prisons because at least three of them were in jail for 10 years without a trial or any charges against them. That is how out of touch people are in this country. Wake the hell up folks, the criminals running the justice system are making fools of all of you. 

Gene Farina I agree with Keith Livingway's comments. There needs to be a distinction, no doubt. I consider an ex con, which by the way is a term rarely used 

Whitney Anderson In Texas there are 11 oyster related felonies on the books...No joke.  

Jim Markowitz our "rehab" effort is failing... 75% recividism... locking them all up together without treatment ... or teaching them work skills.... or wait... maybe we could do those things BEFORE they grow up and do dumb things as adults with no skills to offer.  

Keith Livingway People that commit real crimes meaning murder, rape, major theft etc... do not need to be involved in any political process. Political processe  

Bradley S. Zachary, M.B.A. Cand Regardless... we better give a damn what happens to these people... once we stop caring we're all in a lot of trouble. People are just that... people, human beings worthy of respect and dignity. The reasons for incarceration are complex and sad. It's easy to dismiss them until you are task with reading the heart wrenching conditions from which some of them have come. 

Bradley S. Zachary, M.B.A. Cand Watch the black mirror episode called man against fire on Netflix... kind of eye opening!  

Bradley Schwartz It is time to end life long punishment, after you have served your sentence. By giving back the right to vote, the former inmate becomes a returning citizen. He or She becomes part of society. We have posted numerous articles on prisonpath.com re: this issue.  

Jim Hennessey Irishman Once they have been "rehabililtated", they should have the right to vote, no criminal record, and be on an equal footing with the rest of us. We guaranteed recidivism and that is why we have more people in prison than Communist Red-China.

Bryan Bila How do we define "rehabilitated"? Someone who served their time? Someone who has completed Probation or Parole?? Once they are "rehabilitated" and they then they reoffend, do they still get to vote? I could not disagree with this article more. Should criminals be given steps to re enter society after their punishment has been served? Yes, but while their punishment is being served, in custody or on parole, they should lose their right to vote. If they don't like it, they shouldn't have committed the crime. There should be a class of crime that ends their voting right. Murder, Rape, Child Molestation etc. Lower level crimes, let the criminal earn that right back by making the proper and successful steps to earn it back. If they offend again. Remove the right permanently. A choice they made when they when they decided to commit a crime again. We are not dehumanizing them. They are doing it on their own by the choices they make.  

Steve Dunnington What is the logic behind removing a citizens right to vote? Is that they are restricted because they are "bad" people? If so when do they suddenly become "good" people and are allowed to vote again? Or is it simply explained as part of their punishment? If its the latter its...odd. Love to hear what the logic is for this law. 

Patsy Ortega Thank you for all your input! Very interesting perceptions and comment 

Claire Bannerman-Mott I am reposting because I realized I had a written mistake and could not edit the post! Hi Christopher and all, what would an objective argument/reason be to keep people from voting ? I am particularly interested in why behavior not associated to the right to vote should define this? People who are incarcerated or under supervision are populations who are deeply impacted by politics, so why should they not have a say in government? Being tough on crime does not equate to being smart on crime and this is something researchers have been finding globally in studies for decades. A politician who works based on the emotive idea of being tough on crime has a very different impact on the criminal justice system to those who work with evidence based solutions. 

Lisa Salinas Once a person is released, he (or she) should have his right to vote restored. He did his time. Let him reacclimate and be a full-fledged member of society again.

Matthew Ballantyne Let me get this straight....a bunch of State corrections staff, who collectively work to remove inmate rights through their various unions are jumping up and saying that felons should get an auto-restore to their revoked rights immediately after exiting prison? Are you all serious? If so you need to do the honorable thing and retire, pursue something that doesn't present the conflict you're currently living with. 

Peter MacNeil 🍁 Are you kidding? 

Steve Dunnington Mathew Ballantyne, forgive my ignorance but who are you referring to? 

Keith Livingway It appears that once the ex-con has left prison and paid his or her debt to society based on what Matthew is saying, that to not restore voting rights would be a form of double jeopardy. Further, it diminishes the whole corrections process. Are we implying that the prison system does not work as far as rehabilitation is concerned? Are we saying that once a ex-con has re-entered into society that the ex-con is still an ex-con and a criminal which would imply that the present private prison system is allowing criminals back on the street? It would further imply that the present privately owned prison system does not work at all and creates a conflict within ourselves as if we are crazy to believe that once the debt is paid, that there is another hidden debt that has yet to be paid or the individual is still a criminal and the general public lives under an illusion that prison works at all. If it does not work nor fulfill its purpose, then why does it exist? 

Steve Dunnington Different conversation I think Keith. It depends on what you can fairly expect from prisons. Its the public kept safe for a time at least? Mostly yes? Is the offenders freedom limited as required for punishment? Yes. So prisons do succeed mostly in what the y are mainly intended for. Rehab in prison cannot ever be seen as the main role of prisons. Prisons will always (IMHO) fail in any comparison to non prison based rehab programmes for many reasons. Rehab is more about the individual offenders attitude and will and societies willingness and ability to help a citizen who has committed a crime. That's my opinion anyway. 

Keith Livingway Just keep in mind, I am not bashing prisons, in most cases I do agree they do extinguish an immediate threat and are very effective when it comes to immediate threats. Now, let me share a paragraph with everyone from an affidavit filed in the Human Rights Tribunal. I do this to be very specific as to where the good guys and bad guys line becomes blurred. Due to character restrictions on linkedin, I will have to post it in another post. I do want to express my appreciation for allowing me to impart these concerns to everyone here. 

Keith Livingway The affiant was chained up with inmates who were Compton gang members. They informed the affiant of what is called T.U.N.A. fight. Turn Up Non Affiliated fights where inmates in certain dorms that are not gang members are matched up and forced to fight each other, while gang members bet on the fights. If the non-affiliated choose not to fight then they are beaten by the gang members. This activity is allowed within those facilities known as Wayside and Super Max and even encouraged to manufacture longer sentences which produces more money for these private detention centers. Rehabilitation is never mentioned within the private detention centers. The affiant was placed in dorm 618 for two days where the prison politics were in full effect. The dorms are separated by race, and the gang members ru n the jails. They are respected way more than someone who is non-affiliated. end of quote We can do better than this folks. We can all do better.

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Progressive Prison Ministries, Inc.

Rev. Deacon Jeff Grant, JD, M Div, Director
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